導(dǎo)讀

　　過去十年間，中國(guó)經(jīng)濟(jì)取得了長(zhǎng)足發(fā)展，也為其他國(guó)家的發(fā)展提供了借鑒。這背后有哪些原因？近日，巴西前旅游部部長(zhǎng)、現(xiàn)任清華大學(xué)教授福鑫（Alessandro Teixeira）做客中國(guó)日?qǐng)?bào)《連線》欄目，帶來(lái)他對(duì)中國(guó)發(fā)展和相關(guān)問題的解讀。

　　中國(guó)的發(fā)展不是威脅

　　Q:China has achieved many economic milestones over the past decade, but the Western politicians' saying "China is a threat to the world" has followed all the way. What is your opinion on this?

　　過去十年間，中國(guó)經(jīng)濟(jì)取得了許多里程碑式的成就。與之相伴，西方政治家就“中國(guó)威脅論”喋喋不休。對(duì)于這個(gè)現(xiàn)象，您怎么看？

　　A:I think we need to analyze this statement very carefully. When you say "Western", I think it’s too heavy, it's not Western, maybe mainly it's America and some allied European countries. Because if you go to South America, nobody's talking about China being a threat. If you go to Africa, nobody is talking about it as a trap. People who tell you that or people who are vocal about that are from some countries in the Europe, not all of them, and then there's the United States. So the question is, a threat to whom?

　　我認(rèn)為這個(gè)說法值得仔細(xì)分析。當(dāng)你說“西方”的時(shí)候，我認(rèn)為太廣泛了。你所謂的“西方”，我認(rèn)為不是西方，而主要是美國(guó)和其部分歐洲盟友。在南美，沒人談?wù)撝袊?guó)是個(gè)威脅。非洲也沒人討論“債務(wù)陷阱”。一直拿“中國(guó)威脅論”來(lái)說事的，是少數(shù)幾個(gè)歐洲國(guó)家，不是全部，以及美國(guó)。所以問題應(yīng)該是，中國(guó)對(duì)誰(shuí)產(chǎn)生了威脅？

　　Another question is, why is China a threat? Maybe because the United States doesn't want to compete with anybody else? And China represents, not because China wants to, but represents competition to the US in terms of technology, competition to the US in terms of production. So those are the main elements. I don't see China being a threat to anyone. China's foreign policy, respects sovereignty of every single country. China never invades, never declares war. We are talking about competition in a very narrow field, that is economics.

　　問題之二在于：為何說中國(guó)是一個(gè)威脅？或許是因?yàn)槊绹?guó)不想和其他國(guó)家競(jìng)爭(zhēng)？不是中國(guó)想要去競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，而是中國(guó)在科技、制造的實(shí)力使其被美國(guó)視為競(jìng)爭(zhēng)對(duì)手。所以這些才是關(guān)鍵元素。我認(rèn)為中國(guó)不會(huì)對(duì)任何國(guó)家產(chǎn)生威脅。中國(guó)的外交政策尊重每一個(gè)國(guó)家的主權(quán)。中國(guó)從不發(fā)起侵略，也從不對(duì)外宣戰(zhàn)。我們所說的競(jìng)爭(zhēng)僅限于特定的領(lǐng)域，就是經(jīng)濟(jì)領(lǐng)域。

　　And that's natural because China wants to achieve development. And when to achieve development, you need to have, as President Xi Jinping says, dual circulation, internal market, external market. And if competition is not good, I don't understand, because the United States loves to say that they want to have free competition. So let China compete in the international market, so I don't see a threat in any way. I can see competition, I can see China trying to gain the market.

　　但這是很自然的事，中國(guó)要發(fā)展，想要發(fā)展，就要如習(xí)近平主席所說，實(shí)現(xiàn)雙循環(huán)，在外部和內(nèi)部的市場(chǎng)有機(jī)循環(huán)起來(lái)。如果競(jìng)爭(zhēng)不是好事，那讓我不明白的是，為什么美國(guó)還總是喜歡自我標(biāo)榜“自由競(jìng)爭(zhēng)”？所以，讓中國(guó)在國(guó)際市場(chǎng)上競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，無(wú)論如何，我都不認(rèn)為中國(guó)的發(fā)展是一種威脅，我看到的是競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，是中國(guó)在努力爭(zhēng)取市場(chǎng)。

　　“一帶一路”倡議

　　不是中國(guó)的“馬歇爾計(jì)劃”

　　Q:The Diplomat compared China's BRI to the US's Marshall Plan in a 2016 article. What is your estimation of BRI?

　　《外交學(xué)者》雜志在一篇2016年的文章中將中國(guó)的“一帶一路”倡議比作美國(guó)的馬歇爾計(jì)劃。您怎么看待“一帶一路”倡議？

　　A:It's completely different. Marshall Plan is a plan for reconstruction and for economic fostering. BRI is not that.

　　“一帶一路”倡議和馬歇爾計(jì)劃完全不同。馬歇爾計(jì)劃旨在戰(zhàn)后重建和復(fù)蘇經(jīng)濟(jì)。“一帶一路”不是。

　　Many people would say that the Belt and Road Initiative is a Chinese initiative. Many people say that it’s a way for China to increase trade or increase investment outside. The way I see it is a little different. I see it as a cooperation platform.

　　許多人認(rèn)為“一帶一路”倡議是中國(guó)倡議。也有許多人說它是中國(guó)增長(zhǎng)貿(mào)易、促進(jìn)外部投資的方式。我的看法稍許不同。我認(rèn)為“一帶一路”倡議是一個(gè)合作平臺(tái)。

　　So when we have Latin American countries and there's a discussion, how would Latin America take part in it? How could Latin America engage better? And again, the point that I'd like to stress is that Latin America can engage with many other countries other than China. Because China had the idea to create a platform, but China doesn't want to monopolize it and keep the Belt and Road Initiative to itself. No, it wants to spread around the world as a cooperation platform. You want to be part of BRI. That's fine. If you're not, it's okay. It's your option.

　　所以，當(dāng)拉丁美洲國(guó)家加入了“一帶一路”倡議后，當(dāng)?shù)鼐烷_始進(jìn)行關(guān)于拉丁美洲國(guó)家如何參與該倡議的討論，拉丁美洲國(guó)家怎樣更好地參與進(jìn)來(lái)？我想再次強(qiáng)調(diào)一點(diǎn)，這并不是只與中國(guó)打交道，因?yàn)橹袊?guó)只是創(chuàng)造了一個(gè)平臺(tái)，中國(guó)并不希望一家獨(dú)大，將“一帶一路”倡議占為己有。不，中國(guó)是想向世界提供一個(gè)合作平臺(tái)。你想要加入，那非常棒。你不想加入，沒問題，你有選擇的自由。

　　What I am saying is that if you're part of BRI, you would have enjoyed a club that can invest together, can do trade together, can share different cultural elements together, can participate in discussion of the digital economy, digital transformation, societal transformations. So that's the important point.

　　我想說的是，如果你是“一帶一路”倡議的成員，你就好像加入了一個(gè)俱樂部，大家一起投資，一起貿(mào)易，一起分享不同文化，一起參與數(shù)字經(jīng)濟(jì)、數(shù)字轉(zhuǎn)型、社會(huì)轉(zhuǎn)型的討論。這點(diǎn)非常重要。

　　I've heard people say many times, if you're part of the BRI, China will invest in you, will buy from you. No, that's not the case. China never said that. What China always said is that we are creating, we are sharing a vision of the world of humankind where we want development and prosperity. BRI is a tool that can help us to achieve that. China never said that the only tool is our tool. There is no need for these adjectives in the discussion. What we have in the discussion is something that could help the world.

　　我多次聽到別人說，如果你參與共建“一帶一路”，那么中國(guó)就會(huì)向你投資、向你買東西。不，并非如此。中國(guó)從來(lái)沒說過這樣的話。中國(guó)一直說我們要?jiǎng)?chuàng)建人類命運(yùn)共同體，共同發(fā)展，共同繁榮?！耙粠б宦贰背h就是幫我們實(shí)現(xiàn)它的工具。中國(guó)從沒說過我們的工具是唯一的工具。這些話從沒出現(xiàn)在討論中。我們?cè)谟懻撘恍?duì)世界有益的事情。

　　中美兩國(guó)不會(huì)脫鉤

　　Q:In the context of globalization, what is your opinion about the so-called China-US decoupling?

　　在全球化背景下，您如何看待所謂的“中美脫鉤”？

　　A:In my opinion, it's very, very hard to have a decoupling. When you are the first and second economies, there is no possibility of decoupling. Why? Because you are integrated, not fully, in some value chains, in some supply chains, you are completely integrated.

　　在我看來(lái)，中美兩國(guó)很難脫鉤。兩者作為世界第一大和第二大經(jīng)濟(jì)體，兩者不可能做到脫鉤。為什么呢？因?yàn)橹忻酪呀?jīng)在一些價(jià)值鏈、供應(yīng)鏈中相互融合，已經(jīng)融合在一起。

　　But of course, if you are two largest economies in the world, there is no possibility of decoupling. So I think what the US Trade Representative says in Singapore is the right thing. You cannot divorce. You can realign, you can restrategize, but you cannot divorce. There is no such thing in decoupling. There is no such thing in decoupling in terms of macro economics. There is no such thing of decoupling in terms of technology. Because they are already integrated.

　　當(dāng)然，作為世界上最大的兩個(gè)經(jīng)濟(jì)體，兩者不可能做到脫鉤。所以，我贊同美國(guó)貿(mào)易代表戴琪在新加坡所說的話，中美兩國(guó)不能脫鉤。兩個(gè)國(guó)家可能重新調(diào)整關(guān)系，可能重新部署規(guī)劃，但是不可能脫鉤。不存在脫鉤，從宏觀經(jīng)濟(jì)而言，脫鉤不存在，從科技層面而言，脫鉤也不存在，因?yàn)閮蓢?guó)已經(jīng)緊密結(jié)合。

　　It took a long time, almost two decades, three decades for this integration between the American economy and the Chinese economy. You can not just do it by a presidential order, say "now disappear", it's impossible. People that work with real economics know that. So one thing is the ideological or political use of this term, "decoupling". Another thing is the real economic meaning of decoupling. In the political arena, you can talk about that. But in practical terms, you can reduce but never decouple.

　　中美經(jīng)濟(jì)用了二三十年才達(dá)到了今天這種融合程度，現(xiàn)在僅憑一紙總統(tǒng)令就要中止合作，這是不可能的。從事實(shí)體經(jīng)濟(jì)的人都明白這點(diǎn)?！懊撱^”在意識(shí)形態(tài)或政治上，與在實(shí)體經(jīng)濟(jì)中，有著不同的含義。在政治方面或許會(huì)有這方面的討論，在實(shí)際情況中，融合或許會(huì)減少，但脫鉤絕不可能發(fā)生。

　　中國(guó)發(fā)展的四大因素

　　Q:As former special advisor to the president of Brazil, what do you think of China's development?

　　作為前巴西總統(tǒng)顧問，你怎么看待中國(guó)的發(fā)展？

　　A:I think the root of China's objective, is to achieve development for its people. It's very important. It's not a dream, it's a reality. And I think China can do that because it has its unique system.

　　我認(rèn)為中國(guó)發(fā)展目標(biāo)的根基在于為人民謀發(fā)展。這一點(diǎn)非常重要。這不是夢(mèng)，這是現(xiàn)實(shí)。我認(rèn)為中國(guó)可以做到這點(diǎn)，因?yàn)樗歇?dú)特的體制。

　　How can China get to that? I always say that there are some important elements. The first element that’s very critical is leadership. When the leadership takes a decision, that's taken seriously by everybody, by private sector, by media, by government. So you know the direction where you need to go.

　　中國(guó)如何實(shí)現(xiàn)發(fā)展？我一直說有幾個(gè)重要因素。第一個(gè)關(guān)鍵因素是領(lǐng)導(dǎo)力。中國(guó)的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)層做出決策時(shí)，全民都認(rèn)真參與其中，私有企業(yè)、媒體、政府都包括在內(nèi)，所以你可以清楚了解國(guó)家的發(fā)展方向。

　　The second important element is education. I am doing a research, and I see that at least thirty percent of the income of families go to education. Not only formal education but after school, K12, everything. So that's very important. If you have money, you put money in education and that's different in Western society. Sometimes we take education for granted. We don't think that you need it. Many people say, because the competition in China is huge. But it doesn’t matter if he's in China or outside. You want to prepare. So the second element is education.

　　第二個(gè)因素，是教育。我在做一項(xiàng)調(diào)研，我發(fā)現(xiàn)中國(guó)家庭收入里，至少三成以上都投入到了教育之中。不僅是正規(guī)教育，還有課后輔導(dǎo)，基礎(chǔ)教育等等。這很重要。中國(guó)家庭把錢花在教育上，這和西方社會(huì)不一樣。西方人往往認(rèn)為教育是理所當(dāng)然的，不需要額外投入。很多人會(huì)說，這是因?yàn)橹袊?guó)的競(jìng)爭(zhēng)壓力很大。但無(wú)論在中國(guó)還是在國(guó)外，人都會(huì)面臨競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，人們總是希望有所準(zhǔn)備。所以第二個(gè)因素是教育。

　　The third element is the faith that the population has in the government and in the system. The government plays an important role in terms of leadership, but plays a much more important role in terms of governance. So people understand where you want to go.

　　第三個(gè)因素是中國(guó)人對(duì)政府和體制的信念。政府發(fā)揮著重要的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)決策作用，也發(fā)揮著重要的治理職能。所以人們能了解政府的方向。

　　The fourth element I think, it's an important element, is the culture of Chinese people, is how they perceive the world. Not in the short run, but it's a long run.

　　第四個(gè)因素，我認(rèn)為是很重要的一點(diǎn)，是中國(guó)的文化，是中國(guó)人民如何看待世界，不是只看眼前，而是長(zhǎng)遠(yuǎn)規(guī)劃。

　　I think those four elements are the elements that make China different than any other place around the world.

　　在我看來(lái)，這四個(gè)因素讓中國(guó)不同于世界其他地區(qū)。

　　結(jié)語(yǔ)

　　Unique systems, solid education, firm faith in the government, and long-term vision are the four characteristics of China's path, in Professor Teixeira's observation. With its roots in Chinese soil, the country's path has proved suitable for China's culture and conditions. It has brought the Chinese people peaceful and fulfilled lives, and the Chinese nation lasting prosperity.

　　獨(dú)特的體系、扎實(shí)的教育、人民對(duì)政府的堅(jiān)定信念以及長(zhǎng)遠(yuǎn)規(guī)劃，是福鑫教授觀察到的中國(guó)道路的四大特征。中國(guó)道路扎根于中國(guó)土壤，實(shí)踐證明，它適應(yīng)中國(guó)的文化和國(guó)情。它給中國(guó)百姓帶來(lái)了安穩(wěn)幸福的生活，也給國(guó)家?guī)?lái)了長(zhǎng)富久安。

　　出品人：王浩

　　監(jiān)制：柯榮誼 宋平

　　制片：張少偉 欒瑞英

　　記者：沈一鳴 張欣然 史雪凡 周星佐 劉源

　　實(shí)習(xí)生：呂紅梅 錢昕瑀 王博麟 劉瑩 孫伊茗 張奕杰

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